tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.comments2021-02-05T15:26:28.851+00:00Musing MonkMusing Monkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13212628191168183083noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-48814416305613720112021-02-05T15:26:28.851+00:002021-02-05T15:26:28.851+00:00Thank you for your words of encouragement! Sorry ...Thank you for your words of encouragement! Sorry you lost your long comment!Musing Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13212628191168183083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-37406251701683503732021-02-05T15:14:43.810+00:002021-02-05T15:14:43.810+00:00I wrote a really long comment then had to sign in ...I wrote a really long comment then had to sign in to Google and of course it didn’t keep it 🙁. Thanks for the suggestion. It seems we’re pretty likeminded from what I’ve read of you so far. Keep growing your faith, it is encouraging to me. We need more if that in the world. BestHuntEverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762303107172624974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-72993877012156608932020-05-23T09:16:30.454+01:002020-05-23T09:16:30.454+01:00Thank you!
I did have a sneak peek at your blog. ...Thank you!<br />I did have a sneak peek at your blog. I see you use it to process your own thinking, as I do!Musing Monknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-58776409020976205942020-05-22T21:30:48.008+01:002020-05-22T21:30:48.008+01:00Musing Monk, I'm here from Reddit. I have foun...Musing Monk, I'm here from Reddit. I have found your posts extremely helpful, and I likewise have moved away from a more 'conservative' perspective on Christianity (although I think I'm not exactly liberal, but rather I'm 'orthodox'). <br /><br />Anyways, perhaps you might like my blog here: https://astrangeratthegate.wordpress.com/<br /><br />One of the posts was written by you sometime ago, and with your permission, I was glad to be able to put it there. Hope to have some conversations with you as the years go by. A Stranger at the Gatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296548565949046878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-77662975880325400682016-12-31T20:25:05.677+00:002016-12-31T20:25:05.677+00:00You're welcome. I am glad you liked the post ...You're welcome. I am glad you liked the post ��Musing Monkhttp://musingmonk.blogspot.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-79672031472828549212016-12-30T21:42:15.542+00:002016-12-30T21:42:15.542+00:00Great post. Thanks for writing this, and your oth...Great post. Thanks for writing this, and your other reflections. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-32308151115037731132013-12-08T22:59:25.238+00:002013-12-08T22:59:25.238+00:00Hi "Anonymous",
Thanks for sharing some ...Hi "Anonymous",<br />Thanks for sharing some interesting thoughts. You make 3 good points, and so I'll give you some of my musings on them below.<br /><br />1. I really have to agree with you here! I think that the Bible is full of "heroes of the faith" who behave abominably at times! In the context of the point I was making, however, it is not so much a focus on David as a focus on God. In the quote of 2 Sam 12:8, we are told that God actually gives David multiple wives (he doesn't condemn David for taking them). There is also a hint of this permission for polygamy in Lev 18:18 (why outlaw one specific case, rather than just multiple wives in general?). The story of David is an example of how things are never as black and white as we sometimes think. To say there is only one permitted model of marriage and that is one man, one woman, is not, I think entirely consistent with the Bible.<br /><br />For the record, I am against polygamy. I think it can hurt and devalue people and in our day and age is not a godly way to live. There might have been a time and a context when it was a way of providing and caring for women after men had died in wars etc. but that day is in the past.<br /><br />2. My point with the Jesus and Paul examples is that there is an argument by some (traditionalists) that Genesis 2 states that men are made to marry women and any other model must be sinful. I take your point about what the argument being made is, but I can't see a Biblical model that says "here is what marriage is, and it can only be between one man and one woman". I don't think we really have much in the way of understanding of marriage in the Bible - apart from the concept of faithfulness and love. Much of our Christian teaching on it is quite modern (and I think much of it is healthy). The other interesting thing about Genesis 2 is that the wearing of clothes is clearly a result of sin and the fall and yet we do not condemn non-naturists. I believe that homosexuality is a "deviation" from the norm, but not a sinful one (as, say old age or illness or needing to wear glasses). <br /><br />The point I am trying to make is that not every deviation from the Genesis template is sinful, just because it is different.<br /><br />3. I would be genuinely interested to know if you could point me in the direction of any research that shows sexual attraction to children is natural in some people. However, even if it is, I would suggest there is a difference between a man/woman being attracted to a young boy/girl and acting on it, and a man/woman being attracted to another man/woman and wanting to commit to lifelong, faithful union with that person. The Great Commandments sum everything up and the Loving our Neighbour as ourselves I think declares a responsibility to care for the well-being of others. Children are a very vulnerable group in society, particularly sexually. I don't believe a child is in a position to make a life-long commitment of union to an adult.<br /><br />Significant psychological (and physical) harm could be done to a child, which is why I would oppose sexual relations with children (again, this is a more modern view, as we believe Mary was probably around 13 years old and many young girls bore children in these times).<br /><br />You are very right to say that just because something is natural, that does not make it right. Equally, it would be wrong to say that just because something is unnatural (or less common), it must immediately be wrong. <br /><br />I appreciate your thoughts and contributions. Please feel free to add more to any of the postings if you wish. God bless. :-)Musing Monkhttp://musingmonk.blogspot.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-83552108474746433372013-12-08T00:53:57.731+00:002013-12-08T00:53:57.731+00:002 Sam 12:8 has a very uncomfortable passage for tr...<i>2 Sam 12:8 has a very uncomfortable passage for traditionalists.</i><br /><br />I'm always baffled at the idea that anyone might think of David, of all people, as a role model in sexual affairs. It's pretty clear that whatever God sees in him, sexually, the man is at best an idiot, at worst a murderous monster, and definitely not someone to be emulated.<br /><br /><i>Also, Jesus was single and Paul promotes celibacy (where those have that gift). These are different ways of living that are a deviation from the argument that all men must marry one woman.</i><br /><br />I don't think anyone does argue that all men must marry one woman, though: rather that if a man marries, they should marry a woman. It's quite a significantly different argument (he said, as a heterosexual bachelor, so from a position of some experience in this matter). <br /><br /><i>However, sexual orientation is more like being left handed, right handed, or in a few cases ambidextrous. You do not force an orientation change. Also, using one or the other is not inherently right or wrong, but it is what you do with your hands that is good or evil.</i><br /><br />That's true for hands, but not necessarily true for all things that are inherent. For example, sexual orientation towards children is just as inherent as left-handedness, right-handedness, heterosexuality, or homosexuality, but it is also inherently wrong. <br /><br />Just because something is 'the way you are' does not mean it is right. Sociopaths are the way they are, but that doesn't make it okay to be a sociopath. Some desires are as inherent as right- or left-handedness, and yet ought to be resisted. The questions is whether homosexual desire is one of these inherent-yet-wrong desires; simply pointing out it is inherent is orthogonal to the question of whether it is wrong. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-4869184036403468612013-12-04T11:18:02.986+00:002013-12-04T11:18:02.986+00:00Perhaps, if you are still having problems, you cou...Perhaps, if you are still having problems, you could compose your thoughts in Word (or equivalent) and then copy and paste them here?Musing Monkhttp://musingmonk.blogspot.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-80934138005676660032013-12-04T11:16:51.941+00:002013-12-04T11:16:51.941+00:00The anticipation of your thoughts is growing! I l...The anticipation of your thoughts is growing! I look forward to hearing from you, even if only in 4 line sections!<br /><br />God blessMusing Monkhttp://musingmonk.blogspot.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-51676919998852798412013-12-04T09:21:13.415+00:002013-12-04T09:21:13.415+00:00Hurray, at last something went from my laptop.Hurray, at last something went from my laptop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-36488886306476453802013-12-04T09:19:22.914+00:002013-12-04T09:19:22.914+00:00Musing Monk - Having been away from home the box d...Musing Monk - Having been away from home the box doesn't expand on my ipad. Apart from that i wasted a few words which disappeared into the ether when I pressed "publish". Google seems desperate to enthrall me but I'm not following its path.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-49189531445256513912013-12-01T18:19:36.539+00:002013-12-01T18:19:36.539+00:00Thank you Pondering Parson!
I have the first half...Thank you Pondering Parson!<br /><br />I have the first half of your message, and it ends with "Anyway, here we go".<br /><br />I look forward to part 2!<br /><br />I have made some changes to help you on the blog. Do let me know if this helps at all? Don't forget, you can expand the text box by clicking and dragging the bottom right corner of the box.Musing Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13212628191168183083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-13927613686605361072013-12-01T16:41:08.135+00:002013-12-01T16:41:08.135+00:00Musing Monk - just another try to respond to you b...Musing Monk - just another try to respond to you but with only four lines available to see on the response section it is difficult<br />To get an overall view - especially for those of us memory challenged about what we said in the last paragraph. Also the brown background does not make your posts easily readable. Anyway here we go.Pondering Parsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152064083605874704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-81748429214181252772013-11-27T20:06:21.720+00:002013-11-27T20:06:21.720+00:00Hi Nick. Thanks again. It is hard to follow poin...Hi Nick. Thanks again. It is hard to follow point 1 when some of these people appear to represent you to others (e.g. the media). But it would certainly ease the blood pressure to care less about what they say, and trust that people will know it is only one view!Musing Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13212628191168183083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-48668023081493688042013-11-27T16:57:01.406+00:002013-11-27T16:57:01.406+00:00I would recommend option 1 personally, unless you ...I would recommend option 1 personally, unless you have a real need to engage with this stuff. I don't see any immediate prospect of any progress with this in the near future. The churches have become so polarised and the positions are so well rehearsed that it's best left alone (which is, more or less, what we've been doing in the URC since 2007 - how much longer we can sustain that is in question now but the pause has definitely improved the atmosphere somewhat).<br />Nick Brindleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04118386760012113649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-25013082422719423732013-11-27T11:29:50.177+00:002013-11-27T11:29:50.177+00:00Thank you Nick.
I am naturally drawn to your seco...Thank you Nick.<br /><br />I am naturally drawn to your second suggestion... After a short recuperative sabbatical from painful debate!<br /><br />Option 3 sounds almost fun, if I were a hardier monk! ;-) <br /><br />Thank you and God bless. I enjoy your postings.Musing Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13212628191168183083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-68955924799448824802013-11-27T10:25:53.419+00:002013-11-27T10:25:53.419+00:00I think you have three options:
1) stop talking to...I think you have three options:<br />1) stop talking to the people you have been talking to - this debate has been going on so long you are neither going to find anything new or surprising to say or win the argument so just give up and get on with something else<br />2) talk to them about a related but different matter that might shift things a bit (I would recommend pointing out that the New Testament is also hostile to heterosexuality, even if less so)<br />3) try to find a way to make disagreement on this matter less, perhaps by engaging more directly with the question of whether all those involved are sincere in their commitment to Biblical authority (which may raise some interesting and difficult issues if you take my view that in fact almost none of them are, on either side).Nick Brindleyhttp://loveswork.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-35835194287924972192013-11-18T20:41:18.728+00:002013-11-18T20:41:18.728+00:00Thank you Alasdair. And as I said to another cont...Thank you Alasdair. And as I said to another contributor, there is no problem with anonymous postings either!<br /><br />I just cannot believe that Paul is saying "greedy people will not inherit God's kingdom". It seems strikingly inconsistent with his other teachings. I think he is much more likely to be saying "you are so much better than this [the pagan temple worshippers and sexual abusers, including the homosexual and heterosexual abusers as comparison groups] - after all, it is YOU who are saved, not them. Can you not sort out your own disputes rather than take them to a court outside the Church?" And yet, many seem to be reading this as "here is list of people that will not go to Heaven. End of discussion."Musing Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13212628191168183083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-39264912039244245702013-11-18T19:13:59.206+00:002013-11-18T19:13:59.206+00:00Sorry - did not mean previous post to be Anonymous...Sorry - did not mean previous post to be Anonymous - it was from meAlasdair Gordonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-35775423359854913592013-11-18T19:12:43.048+00:002013-11-18T19:12:43.048+00:00It worth having a look at Michael Wood’s website
...It worth having a look at Michael Wood’s website<br /><br />http://www.michaelwoodcrypto.com<br /><br />Wood suggests that the word arsenokoites (1 Cor 6: 9 and 1 Tim 1: 9) has been understood to means male-bedder (i.e male homosexual) yet there is scholarly evidence that the true meaning is boy-raper. In other words, Paul is rightly condemning those who sexually abuse boys and is making no comment about men (or women) in what we would now call a gay relationship. If this is correct – and who can be entirely sure – then it casts great doubt on the “one clear true meaning” of Scripture on this point. It is because there is at least some doubt, that I cannot bring myself to come to a simple conclusion nor can I work myself into a moral outrage on the subject.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-15857218186625854882013-11-06T10:03:10.058+00:002013-11-06T10:03:10.058+00:00Thank you anonymous Bruce! I appreciate the time ...Thank you anonymous Bruce! I appreciate the time you took to read and comment. Anonymity is fine here (it would be ironic for Musing Monk to complain about that!) but a name is also friendly :-) God blessMusing Monkhttp://musingmonk.blogspot.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-35631545614930013162013-11-06T09:31:42.600+00:002013-11-06T09:31:42.600+00:00Ooops! "glove puppet". (Scribe's er...Ooops! "glove puppet". (Scribe's error!) Best, Bruce.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-85185447214720549932013-11-06T09:30:38.725+00:002013-11-06T09:30:38.725+00:00Hi, Monk, this is Bruce Gardner. I could not negot...Hi, Monk, this is Bruce Gardner. I could not negotiate the various options so had to enter as "Anonymous". (I will put my Guy Fawkes mask away now!) ;-)<br /><br />Anyway, just to say that I appreciate the sense in what you say here. So often, the plain reading of Scripture is not really so plain and while some use that as an excuse to ignore the Bible and turn it into a "glver puppet" (a felicitous expression), I know you are not doing that. I am sure many will wish to reflect on what you say here and elsewhere about toleration.<br /><br />Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5819980728766816854.post-54159556483748167222013-10-18T07:41:50.818+01:002013-10-18T07:41:50.818+01:00Also, if you have any thoughts or contributions (e...Also, if you have any thoughts or contributions (even disagreeing ones!) on any of my posts here, you are welcome to share them. I enjoy a good musing!Musing Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13212628191168183083noreply@blogger.com